CoRecursive: Coding Stories

de Adam Gordon Bell - Software Developer


The Original Remote Developer

por Adam Gordon Bell - Software Developer

Today's episode is about remote work. Well, sort of. I found someone with a different perspective on remote work and a fantastic story to share, Paul Lutus.

I think that he might be the original remote software developer.

He left California behind for a lower cost of living in Oregon. And from Oregon, he developed software for Apple. But the kind of surprising thing is he did this in the 1970s! And he did it so well he became rich and even briefly quite famous.

You can support the podcast and encourage me to keep making it on patreon.

Quines, Polygot Code, and Other Fun Computations

por Adam Gordon Bell - Software Developer

Today, previous guest and my neighbor Don Mckay and I will discuss items from the endless fascinating Cursed Computer Iceberg Meme. The Iceberg is a giant list of "the peculiarities and weirdness of computers."

We each a few items from the list and alternate explaining it to each other. Don's choices are varied, and mine focus on quines and esoteric coding problems. We also share some coding horror stories from our past.

You can support the podcast and encourage me to keep making it on patreon.

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Full-Time Open Source

por Adam Gordon Bell - Software Developer

Today's show: How to Quit Your Job and Work on Open Source Full Time.

This story has it all, balancing open source work and full-time employment, building up enough supporters and enough savings to leave your job. The hardest part to me which is explaining leaving your job to your significant other and to your family and friends.

And also what do you do if your project succeeds, and then someone forks it and builds a commercial business around it? There's a lot more as well dealing: with hacker news feedback, how to improve upon the C programming language and how to be super ambitious without seeming arrogant.

Sponsor the podcast:

If you go to, you can find the Patreon page for the podcast, and if you are enjoying these episodes and want me to keep putting more time into them, think about setting up a recurring donation.


Andrew’s personal website


The Most Popular Database In The World

por Adam Gordon Bell - Software Developer

On today's show, I'm talking to Richard Hipp about surviving becoming core infrastructure for the world. SQLite is everywhere. It's in your web browser, it's in your phone, it's probably in your car, and it's definitely in commercial planes. It's where your iMessages and WhatsApp messages are stored, and if you do a find on your computer for *.db, you'll be amazed at how many SQLite databases you find.

Today, Richard is going to share his story. It's the story of creating a small open source project and having it grow beyond your wildest ambitions. It's the story of following that success wherever it leads: From relationships with tech-giants to interesting testing procedures and more.

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From Competitive Programming to APL

por Adam Gordon Bell - Software Developer

Today on the show, we have solving algorithmic programming problems. You know when you interview for a job to write CSS and they ask you to reverse a binary tree on the whiteboard using C and in constant memory space? It's that kind of thing. These problems have their roots in algorithmic programming contests. And our guest, Conor Hoekstra, is a former competitor.

Episode Page

Ethereum Rescue

por Adam Gordon Bell - Software Developer

Today I talk to Dan Robinson about trying to get someone their money back on Ethereum. He's going to be battling this murky world of blockchain high-frequency bots. Along the way, we'll learn how trades are executed on Ethereum and a bit of game theory and political philosophy.

It's an entertaining peek into a world that seems like pure science fiction to me, a world where nobody's in charge, where there's no regulation, and where these forces of greed and idealism are in direct conflict with each other

Episode Page / Transcript

Apple 2001

por Adam Gordon Bell - Software Developer

David Shayer worked at Apple for 14 years, and he has a wild experience to share. Apple has a unique culture, and David will give us an insider view of what it was like for him at Apple during the 2000s, roughly between 2001 to 2015 when Apple transformed into the powerhouse that it is today.

David worked as a Software Engineer but for the hardware organization with Apple. He worked on a few special projects at Apple: at least one of them was top secret. But he is also going to share the struggles of building file systems and working on really short timelines and having development plans upended by Steve jobs.

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Video Game Programming From Scratch

por Adam Gordon Bell - Software Developer

I'm not really a big gamer, but lately, I've fallen down this rabbit hole into the world of Casey Muratori, and this project that he started on Twitch in 2014. He is building a video game from scratch and explaining it all as he goes along.

Casey is a professional video game and game engine, creator. He has been doing it for over 30 years. His approach to development feels a little bit like it's from the 1970s. Yet, it resonates with many smart people who are learning how to truly build things and understand fundamentals from Casey.

Casey has a lesson about learning and teaching for us all.


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Reinforcement Learning At Facebook with Jason Gauci

por Adam Gordon Bell - Software Developer

If you ever wanted to learn about machine learning you could do worse than have Jason Gauci teach you. Jason has worked on YouTube recommendations. He was an early contributor to TensorFlow the open-source machine learning platform. His thesis work was cited by DeepMind.

But what I find so fascinating with Jason is he recognized this problem that was being solved the wrong way and set out to find a solution to it.

So that's the show today. Jason is going to share his story.


Programming Throwdown

Episode Bonus

2020 Year End

por Adam Gordon Bell - Software Developer

Welcome to the year-end episode. Today is all the bonus questions. Often times I have questions that I want to ask guests, but they don't quite fit the overall theme of the episode. So today we're going to do a whole episode of those extra questions.

I have previously recorded questions for Brian Kernaghan, the creator of AWK among many other things. I have questions for Sean Allen, who works at Microsoft Research, and a couple of other people.

Episode Page:

Slack Channel:



Frontiers of Performance with Daniel Lemire

por Adam Gordon Bell - Software Developer

Did you ever meet somebody who seemed a little bit different than the rest of the world? Maybe they question things that others wouldn’t question or said things that others would never say.

Daniel is a world-renowned expert on software performance, and one of the most popular open source developers, if you measure by get up followers. Today, he’s gonna share his story. It involves time at a research lab, teaching students in a new way. It will also involve upending people’s assumptions about IO performance.  Elon Musk And Julia Roberts will come up a little bit more than you might expect.

Episode Page

Episode Transcript


Daniel's Blog

Daniel's Github

Parsing JSON Really Quickly: Lessons Learned

The Birth of Unix with Brian Kernighan

por Adam Gordon Bell - Software Developer

As Brian Kernighan said “UNIX since the start has become a vehicle for creating and using programming languages.” Brian initiated work on what would become the UNIX system. He helped develop it to run on a minicomputer and would eventually be ported to other computers.

In this episode, Brain will go in-depth on how the UNIX was built.

Episode Page

Episode Transcript

“If you wanted, you could go sit in your office and think deep thoughts or program, or write on your own blackboard or whatever, but then come back to the common space when you wanted to.“ - Brian Kernighan

“I found it easier to program when I was trying to figure out the logic for myself rather than trying to figure out where in the infinite stack of documentation was the function I needed. So for me, programming is more like creating something rather than looking it up, and too much of today's programming is more like looking it up.” - Brian Kernighan

“If what I find challenging or hard or whatever is also something that other people find hard or challenging or whatever, then if I do something that will improve my lot, I'm perhaps improving their lot at the same time.” - Brian Kernighan


Brian's Homepage

Book: Unix: A History and a Memoir

Book: Millions, Billions, Zillions: Defending Yourself in a World of Too Many Numbers

Book: Understanding the Digital World: What You Need to Know about Computers, the Internet, Privacy, and Security

To The Assembly

por Adam Gordon Bell - Software Developer

How do CPUs work? How do compilers work? How does high-level code get translated into machine code? Today's guest is Matt Godbolt and he knows the answers to these questions.

How he became an expert in bare metal programming is an interesting story. Matt shares his origin story and the creation of compiler explorer in today's interview.

Episode Page

Episode Transcript


Compiler Explorer

Matt's Github

Matt's Blog

Matt's YouTube

Memento Mori

por Adam Gordon Bell - Software Developer

Preparing our minds for the inevitable - death is pressing. After facing terminal cancer, Kate Gregory reminded herself that this event can still become inspiring by focusing on the positive.

In this episode, Kate is going to share her success and explain how you would apply her 5 pieces of advice to your career as a software developer to help you to build a remarkable career for yourself.

Episode Page

Episode Transcript


Gregory Consulting Limited

Kate's Classes in Pluralsight

Include CPP

Kate's Blog


We are teaching Functional Programming Wrong

por Adam Gordon Bell - Software Developer

Today Richard Feldman shares his story of going from javascript developer to elm developer to functional programming teacher.  Along the way, Richard finds that people are teaching functional programming wrong.  We are teaching it in a way that misses how most industrial software developers learn best.

In this episode, Richard Feldman delves into Elm, his approach, and how to make teaching delightful.

Episode Page

Episode Transcript


Book: Elm in Action

A Taze of ATS

Elm Language

Software That Doesn't Suck With Jim Blandy

por Adam Gordon Bell - Software Developer

Building Subversion

Software is just the tool and it should get out of your way. In this episode, we will discuss Jim Blandy’s insights on how to build and recognize improvements for a great developer tool and find out how he approached the question: “What's the worst software that you use every day?”

“Everybody likes imaginary code because imaginary code is always perfect.” -Jim Blandy

“You don't want to maximize engagement with your version control system. You just want it to do its job and get out of the way. And so basically if somebody says, you know, this doesn't suck. That's actually pretty much exactly the right thing.” - Jim Blandy

“If you're making a series of small incremental changes to a large data structure, then the way that the persistent data structures are trying really hard to share as much data as possible really works in your favor.” -Jim Blandy

Episode Page

Episode Transcript


Unproven Tech Case Study with Sean Allen

por Adam Gordon Bell - Software Developer

Choosing The Right Tool For the Job

Choosing the right programming language or framework for a project can be key to the success of the project.

In today’s episode, Sean Allen Sean shares a story of picking the right tool for a job. The tool he ends up picking will surprise you.

His problem: make a distributed stream processing framework, something that can take a fire hose of events and perform customer’s specific calculations on them but the latency needs to be less than a millisecond and the calculations might be CPU intensive. Who would need something like this? The initial use case was risk systems for Wall Street banks. 

“Basically programming languages are tools. It's not about ergonomics, it's not about developer experience, it's not about all the things that we normally talk about, it's about getting the job right. For whatever that means it's a means to an end.” - Sean Allen

Episode Page

Episode Transcript


Krystal's Story

por Adam Gordon Bell - Software Developer

Chasing Your Curiosity and Continuous Learning

Things are easier to learn when you are passionate about something. A lot of great careers are built on curiosity and obsession including Krystal Maughan our guest for today's episode.

Krystal will share her journey as she chased her curiosity in programming wherever it led her.

"Everybody has that moment when everything's shiny, you know when it's new and you walk on to campus like Google or whatever.
Like the first time, I went to Google IO and I just thought it was like, this is insane."

"If you like to learn things, I think that's a gift. I think that's not something that everybody has." 

"I think that seeing programming in different ways and seeing that it could be this kind of fun thing that you could break apart and find different ways of executing." 

Episode Page

Episode Transcript


Learning a new language with Bruce Tate

por Adam Gordon Bell - Software Developer

There’s joy that can be found in language learning and pain as well. Whether you’re a beginner or an expert, there are still some things you can only discover by picking up a new language. 

Bruce Tate will tell us how learning new languages rekindled the spark of joy for him.

I find that learning a new language mixes a lot of joy in that pain, and that's when I grow most rapidly as a developer.”

“You can't break somebody else through their own pain. They have to learn their own lessons, and they have to, at some point in the model, they have to feel more and more pain to break through to the expert.”

When you visit other places, when you learn other languages, the world gets smaller.”

Episode Page

Episode Transcript



Portal Abstractions with Sam Ritchie

por Adam Gordon Bell - Software Developer

Buckle up, on today’s episode Adam interviews Sam about how the abstract algebra and probabilistic data structures helped solve fast versus big data issues that many are struggling with. Sam Ritchie is a machine learning researcher and a mechanical engineer by training.

Stop in to hear Adam and Sam’s conversation about portal abstractions that let you leverage work from other fields. You cannot miss this episode!

"And that's really all we want to do. Like, we want things where you can pause and wait a while and then load it back out and keep going." - Sam Ritchie

"I'm aiming to implement these interfaces and pass these tests and then being able to immediately turn around and have like an approximate sliding window counter that would just work with stripes, like entire machine learning feature generation interface." - Sam Ritchie

"I'm really passionate about and the reason this stuff's important is. You want to go mine the literature of what other people have done. You know you want to go be able to plug these things into your work and really just benefit from this incredible community that's been cranking for, you know, again, maybe hundreds of years." - Sam Ritchie

Episode Page

Episode Transcript


Sam's Blog

Summing Bird


Reinforcement Learning

Loving Legacy Code with Jonathan Boccara

por Adam Gordon Bell - Software Developer

Legacy code is everywhere. I don't think I've met anyone who doesn't have to deal with legacy code in the substantial portion of his work.

Our guest, Jonathan Boccara is a French C++ developer and the author of The Legacy Code Programmer's Toolbox. In this episode, Jonathan will help us understand and build the correct mindset to effectively work with legacy code by using his approach and processes.

"An important message I'm trying to get across is that you should not complain if you don't, in turn, intend to improve the code." - Jonathan Boccara

"That would be any critique that's technical. One thing that comes up very often is levels of obstruction. If I had to sum up best practices in, in three words, that would be those levels of obstruction." - Jonathan Boccara

"The point of code is to make a piece of software run and to make it run in a way that will make customers happy. " - Jonathan Boccara

Episode Page

Episode Transcript



The Reason For Types with Jared Forsyth on ReasonML and Javascript

por Adam Gordon Bell - Software Developer

Adam talked to Jared Forsyth about his journey from untyped javascript to using flow and eventually reasonml.

Click here to see if you are eligible for a the Springboard scholarship from our sponsor

"I mean, I was, I'll admit it I was definitely in the: 'I was scarred by Java and C plus plus in an intro to programming class and I never want to look at types again' Camp"

"My first language was Python and followed closely by Javascript. And so I was, I was loving the loosey goosey scripting language. My first experience of using types in JavaScript, I was like is this going to be terrible? Because there's so much overhead in Java and C plus, plus you have to write types for literally everything."


Karl L Hughes on Speaking and Conference Talks

por Adam Gordon Bell - Software Developer

Adam talks to Karl Hughes about his path to becoming a conference speaker and the work he has done to make it easier for others to follow in his footsteps.

"I didn't start trying to speak at conferences until I was at least seven or eight years into my software development career. So. Just a couple of years ago and before that, I think what helped build confidence was speaking occasionally at meetups. I started talking occasionally at local code bootcamps, just kind of getting to be in front of a crowd and start to build up some like level of self-assuredness and eventually I think the next step was just obvious. I wanted to push myself to do something a little scarier and bigger, and that was like, get in front of people at a real conference. "

"And so it is scary. Partly also it's that, you know, because it was my first time, I didn't really know what to expect. I had only been to a couple of tech conferences before. I didn't know what the audiences were going to be like. If there was kind of be this like big tomato throwing thing at the end, they're all just bashed me or if it was going to be like a more of a friendly conversation."

Show notes:

Don and Adam discuss folds

por Adam Gordon Bell - Software Developer

Today we try a different format. Adam invites his neighbour, Don McKay, over to ask him questions. An interesting discussion on recursion, corecursion and the naming of the podcast unfolds.

"John was saying, we conclude that since modularity is the key to successful programming, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. I think what he means by modularity is okay, we write our fold and it's like three lines long.  Once that exists somewhere, we don't have to have that base case all over our code. We ended up programming a higher declarative level.
The other reason is just I really like clean abstractions. There's more to learn but once you do, you're able to kind of have this language where you can talk about these things at a higher level"

David Heinemeier Hansson, Software Contrarian

por Adam Gordon Bell - Software Developer

David Heinemeier Hansson talks to Adam about being avoiding a software monoculture. He explains why we should find a programming language that speaks to us, why ergonomics matter and why single page apps and microservices are not for him.

"That is the pleasure and privilege of working with the web. No one knows what you built it. It, you could build an in basic, you can build it a Ocaml, you can build in the Haskell, you can build it in whatever Ruby. No one is going to be none the wiser you get to choose"

You want to write for the web. I mean, literally every programming language that's ever been invented and known to humankind is serving a webpage somewhere."

"There's just something heartwarming in that, that this idea of the monoculture that like this is all just a battle to the death and there's going to be one framework and there's going to be one programming language that lifts is left standing. Programmers are really drawn into that right into that horse race."

So much of their technology choices seem to be predicated on like, is this popular? Is this going to be popular next year? Do you know what I mean?"

"The crimes against programming humanities that have been done in the service of single page applications are far worse than the ones that have been done in the service of microservices.

But then of course, as it is, lots of people combine the two. So it's a fleet of microservices serving a single page application, and that's just where it bam, my head explodes with like, yeah, I would rather retire and fucking, I don't know, make weaved baskets than deal with that shit."

"I'm not saying that email is sort of in its base form is wonderful, but you know what is wonderful asynchronous. Write-ups of cohesive, full thoughts, people using actual goddamn paragraphs to describe ideas and proposals, and they put those paragraphs together into form entire, cohesive thoughts. And then letting someone take that in, read those several paragraphs, sit back for more than five minutes. Ponder that. And then respond."


Podcast Page

The Business Of Developer Tools With Lee Edwards

por Adam Gordon Bell - Software Developer

How do you build a business around tools for software engineers? Adam talks to Lee Edwards, a VC who spends a lot of time thinking about this question.

"When I think about is this a good business, I think about is there value Accruing. The question is just how much.

The question about is it a venture-backed business? The very, very oversimplified answer is do you believe you can get $100 million in revenue within 10 years? And those numbers are kind of fudgy. But if you can do that, you can IPO a company and it's kind of amazing that PagerDuty and Twillio each do one thing well and they're multibillion-dollar companies. "

"Another interesting thing that venture capitalists talk about behind closed doors and probably never tweet about or say publicly because it makes them look bad. But you do often wonder if the founder of a dev tool company, a lot of times they're really altruistic and you know, I feel this way too, right? But venture capitalists are like, wait, don't give your stuff away for free. And it can sometimes be kind of like a conflict. I think when you're looking for an open-source founder, you need to look for someone as a VC that actually does want to make everyone money."

Show Notes:

Software in Context with Zach Tellman

por Adam Gordon Bell - Software Developer

Adam talks to Author and Clojure advocate Zach Tellman about how great software is built.

"If we say something is over-engineered, what we mean is it's too complex or it's too robust or it handles a bunch of situations or scenarios that are not relevant to how we're using it. It's okay for us to create narrow things. It's okay for us to create Powershells instead of bash sort of environments because that narrowness gives us the ability to go and do things we might not otherwise be able to do."

"Twitter are built on top of Ruby because that was a reasonable thing. And then it stopped being the reasonable thing. And again, you have this kind of, I dunno, I call it hacker news induction, which is like, well I built this thing and then I built this other thing, which is almost exactly the same thing. And it worked or it didn't work. And therefore I think that this must generalize across all possible applications of this thing, right? So I tried to rails and it was great or it was awful and therefore it is great or awful, you know, in all situations. "

Zach's Personal Site

Elements Of Clojure Book

Beautiful and Useless Coding with Allison Parrish

por Adam Gordon Bell - Software Developer

Generative Art involves using the tools of computation to creative ends. Adam talks to Allison Parrish about how she uses word vectors to create unique poetry. Word vectors represent a fundamentally new tool for working with text.

Adam and Allison also talk about creative computer programming and building twitter bots and what makes something art.

"Computer programming is beautiful and useless. That's the reason that you should want to do it is not because it's going to get you a job, because it has a particular utility, but simply for the same reasons that you would pick up oil paints or do origami or something. It's something that has like an inherent beauty to it that is worthy of studying."

"For my purpose as an artist and as like someone who teaches programming to artists and designers, I want to emphasize that it's not only a vocational thing, it's not only a way for building things like to do apps for that matter. It's not only a way to, you know, write useful applications that help to organize communities or help to do scientific work and other like good applications of programming and software engineering. But there is this like very essential, very core part of computer programming that is just joyful. Um, that's about understanding your own mind in different ways and understanding the world in different lands."

Experimental Creative Writing with the Vectorized Word

Every Icon


Allison Parrish's Website



Every Word

Tech Evangelism and Open source With Gabriel Gonzalez

por Adam Gordon Bell - Software Developer

What makes some pieces of technology take off? Why is java popular and not small talk or Haskell. Gabe is a popular blogger, a former Haskell cheerleader, and creator of the Dhal configuration language. Today we talk about marketing and tech evangelism.

"One common mistake I see a lot of new open source developers make is they tried to build what I call the hype train. Where they have started a new project that has a lot of poTech Evangelism with Gabriel Gonzalez
tential and they advertise on hacker news hoping that, okay, we're gonna generate a lot of hype, maybe get a lot of influx of new contributors, new contributes, new features, generate more hype and so forth."

"They hope that there'll be that virtuous cycle that will get them to the mainstream in practice, that never happens. Usually, the thing about contributors is that their needs are always going to be fragmented, right? If you have eight new contributors, they're going to be taking you in eight different directions. You should focus on one direction and sometimes that means not only doing a lot of work yourself, but it's explicitly saying no to something and saying this is not where I want to take the product right now."


Crossing the Chasm

Dhall Lang

Adam's SE Radio Interview with Gabe

Haskell For All - Gabe's Blog

Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs with Hal Abelson

por Adam Gordon Bell - Software Developer

Adam talks to Hal Abelson about the textbook he coauthored in 1984, SICP and why it is still popular and influential today.

"If you pick up almost any computing book it starts out 'here are these datatypes, these operations that you do' and somewhere around 20 or 30% through the book, they show you how to define a function or a procedure. Whereas we really take the opposite approach. We say the key thing is abstraction. So we kind of start there."

"The axe [the book] is grinding is that people write programs to do one particular thing. And then the price of that is that a whole lot of software engineering ends up being trying to get out of the hole you dug yourself into because you made a program that was too specific."

Open Source Health and Diversity with Heather C Miller

por Adam Gordon Bell - Software Developer

Heather C Miller is an Assistant Processor at CMU. She is concerned that key open source projects are at risk of failure and no one is paying attention. Adam talks to her about open source, how it grows, the diversity problems it has and much more.

Heather also shares some interesting stories about the early days of Scala and her ideas for increasing diversity in tech.

Heather's JuliaCon keynote

Digital Infrastructure

Scala Center

Compiling to Bytecode with Thorsten Ball

por Adam Gordon Bell - Software Developer

What do compilers do? What is the runtime of a language? What does it mean to compile something down to bytecode and what executes the byte code. Throsten Ball Answers these questions in this interview with Adam.

"A virtual machine is a computer built-in software, a CPU built-in software"
"Compilers can be slow. You know, I grew up running Linux and I had Gentoo running, so I basically let my computer run for the whole night to compile my window manager. So I do know how slow compilers can be and the reason they're slow is because you're paying the upfront costs that an interpreter pays at runtime. You're paying a little bit more because you're doing additional optimizations. You're shifting the cost to a point in time where you're happy to pay it."

Writing a compiler in GO

GCC Codebase Mirror

LLVM Codebase

TCC Compiler

C in 4 functions

8CC - small self hosting compiler


Bartosz Milewski on Category Theory

por Adam Gordon Bell - Software Developer

Today Adam talks to Bartosz Milewski. He is the author of a famous blog series, lecture series and now book on Category Theory for programmers.

The world of functional programming is rife with terminology imported from abstract algebra and Category Theory. In fact, it may be one of the most valid criticisms of functional programming is the use of Category-Theoretic terminology that can be unwelcoming to newcomers.

Category theory can also be a tool to teach us to see software development in a different light and it can teach us to build better software. Bartosz is also just an interesting person, if you haven't heard of him yet, you are in for a treat.

Bartosz's Website

Blog Series


Lecture Series

Jimmy Koppel on Advanced Software Design

por Adam Gordon Bell - Software Developer

How do we create great software? What are the important skills need to properly review a PR? How do you identify assumptions of a code base and the stable contracts of a software module?

Jimmy Koppel is working on his Ph.D. in the field of program synthesis at MIT.  He was previously paid 100 thousand dollars to drop out of university by Peter Thiel, but yet still graduated with two degrees.  

The most interesting, however, about Jimmy is he is working hard to teach the world how to design better software.
Due to his time working on program synthesis, he developed some unique insights into what makes software good, and what makes it bad, and he spends time teaching people his insights.

Three Level of Software

Peter Thiel 20 under 20

Benjamin Franklin Method 

You are a Program Synthesizer

Jimmy's Coaching Program

Episode Page:


por Adam Gordon Bell - Software Developer

How do we make javascript easier to work with? Chris Krycho has been using typescript to add types to javascript since 2016.

Chris is a software developer at LinkedIn who, at his previous gig, worked on converting one of the largest Ember apps in the world to TypeScript. I was shocked by the size. Chris also loves Rust and types and is a former C and FORTRAN programmers. He hosted a podcast called the New Rustacean, which he has retired from.

Today we talk about TypeScript and when you should use it. We also talk about Language Server Protocols, Rust, working with large codebases, Structural types, row polymorphism and talking code over audio.